Factors to consider in pricing a grasscloth installation

[Susan Malmrose]

I could use some advice concerning a grasscloth installation for a decorator. I haven't seen the actual product but I've been told that its a loosely woven dark brown grass cloth. The room is 16 X 24 ft. and I told them to order 10 bolts. There are alcoves and a large dormer with a slanting ceiling. There are 9 inside corners and 4 outside corners.

I haven't received the instructions to see if a liner is recommended. I know that I will have to balance the strips on each wall. How do I know whether to wet on dry trim? Would you paper 1 wall with the #1 strips from different rolls rather than working from 1 roll at a time? Is it necessary to inspect the rolls? Should I paint the walls behind where the seams will go? How do you handle the corners and the dormer?

I know this is pretty basic stuff for most of you so I appreciate any advice you can give me. Thank you.

[Jeff Evans]

Well Susan, I hang a ton of grasscloth, more than I wish to actually. I've never run upon a fool proof method for shading strips other than taking them up to the wall one by one to see if they match. The method of using the first sheet from all the rolls didn't prove true to me. Also consider that you are going to be balancing sheets, and possibly trimming quite a bit off of the edges, so how can you predict it will match after doing that? I am moderating my views about shading with this material anymore, as it's a natural product, and then they dye the stuff- a very difficult method to get consistent results with. Client's, when told ahead of time about this shading, are ususally very accepting of it. Now, of course, I'll pull down a sheet if it's drastically different, but I don't drive myself crazy over slight variations. I got measurably better at hanging grasscloth when I started wet trimming it, as it promotes clean pasting, and also makes trimming a parallel sheet much easier. If you're going to trim it anyway you can just paste close to the edges instead of having to go all the way and risk getting paste on your table or the paper. I paste the sheet, book it, and unless it's real prone to showing creasing, I sweep it flat with my sweep so I get a good trim. I've never seen a situation with grass that called for striping the wall with paint, but I know others who do it. If you're getting tight seams then why do it? I love hanging most grasscloth over Draw Tite and use 234 as my adhesive, unless it's a thin substrate. Then you'll have to use your own judgement as to an appropriate paste. I'd size the seams to make the seaming easier too, maybe use some clay. Definitely size the outside corners, as that will make quicker work of your wraps there. As far as your paper quantity, with 10 bolts you're getting, at best, 30 strips if the ceiling height is a few inches under 8'. You may want to double check that figure, go look at the job and map out the installation, with balancing in mind, so you don't run short. Post more questions if you have them and we'll help you through it.


Jeff

[Eunice, PRS Reporter]

Hi Susan. I do stripe the walls - especially if it is a stiff grass is that helpful because the sheet won't move for you to tighten any hairline cracks. It's cheap insurance for seams and inside corners IMO. Interestingly, not all straightedges are. (straight that is) I found out when hanging a deep cherry colored grass that mine had a bow of just under 1/16", and no, I hadn't damaged it. I bought another some time later and checked it out on a granite countertop, and it too is ever so slightly out. If you have a stiff dark grass and a light wall, it is a recipe for disaster. Stripe with flat paint - it takes ten minutes.

[Susan Malmrose]

Thanks Jeff, if the bolts are 36 feet long and the ceilings are 9 ft, won't I get 3 strips per bolt? Also any ideas on pricing assuming $50.00 hr. I have no idea how long the job should take or how I should approach the pricing.

[Eunice, PRS Reporter]

Susan, big heads up - bolts of grasscloth are usually only 24' long. Often you can get only 2 strips per bolt. If you want some input on layout, maybe you could make a floorplan sketch with ceiling heights noted and scan it and post here, or fax it to one of us and we could post it. The alcove thing concerns me - bullnose corners or sharp 90 degree?

I usually table trim grass, but have been known to doublecut it on the wall too - for that you need to paste the wall and sponge the back for relaxation, or use slipsheeting or tape so you don't get adhesive on the surface. I would pull through a machine and tape the seams if the tape didn't lift fibers and make 'hairy' stripes at the seams. test first. Oh, to doublecut it can't be too stiff and tough to cut or you'll end up pushing so hard to break through the fibers that you score the wall.

[Susan Malmrose]

Thanks Eunice, I really need to see the grasscloth. I've been using your corner tools and they've been great. Do you always table trim like Jeff does?

Susan

[Jeff Evans]

Yep, gotta watch those straightedges, as they'll get outa wack pretty easily. I buy a new one every couple years or so, but it's because I do a lot of untrimmed handprints where the quality of the seams is so crucial. I'd say that this job sounds like at least two days if you're striping the seam areas. Don't give your services away, tell them what they're getting for their money. All this talk of doublecutting just put a guy in Atlanta in the cardiac ward, but I have to confess that I've done the same thing too. It's not the best thing for the walls, but if you protect them with pads it works fine. I've gotten so proficient (for me)with the wet trim method that I don't really consider any other way at this point in my life.

[Chris Murphy]

Hi Susan. I do stripe the walls - especially if it is a stiff grass is that helpful because the sheet won't move for you to tighten any hairline cracks. It's cheap insurance for seams and inside corners IMO. Interestingly, not all straightedges are. (straight that is) I found out when hanging a deep cherry colored grass that mine had a bow of just under 1/16", and no, I hadn't damaged it. I bought another some time later and checked it out on a granite countertop, and it too is ever so slightly out. If you have a stiff dark grass and a light wall, it is a recipe for disaster. Stripe with flat paint - it takes ten minutes.

The trip to the paint store takes far longer than 10 min. Get a good straight edge.

"Loosely woven grasscloth"? Sounds like a potential bamboo.

[Chris Murphy]

Yep, gotta watch those straightedges, as they'll get outa wack pretty easily. I buy a new one every couple years or so, but it's because I do a lot of untrimmed handprints where the quality of the seams is so crucial. I'd say that this job sounds like at least two days if you're striping the seam areas. Don't give your services away, tell them what they're getting for their money. All this talk of doublecutting just put a guy in Atlanta in the cardiac ward, but I have to confess that I've done the same thing too. It's not the best thing for the walls, but if you protect them with pads it works fine. I've gotten so proficient (for me)with the wet trim method that I don't really consider any other way at this point in my life.

Tape tape the straightedge to the top of your boards for transit/storage. I'll get a picture today.

[Chris Murphy]

Yep, gotta watch those straightedges, as they'll get outa wack pretty easily. I buy a new one every couple years or so, but it's because I do a lot of untrimmed handprints where the quality of the seams is so crucial. I'd say that this job sounds like at least two days if you're striping the seam areas. Don't give your services away, tell them what they're getting for their money. All this talk of doublecutting just put a guy in Atlanta in the cardiac ward, but I have to confess that I've done the same thing too. It's not the best thing for the walls, but if you protect them with pads it works fine. I've gotten so proficient (for me)with the wet trim method that I don't really consider any other way at this point in my life.

I'll admit to certain moral feelings when I hear that someone wants to double-cut grass (except, maybe, wrapped insets). Wet trimming is just too easy and efficient. Not to mention that the force needed to cut through 2 sheets of grass- much less the heavier weaves- scores the sheetrock enough to ruin it structurally.

[Jeff Evans]

Chris wrote:
"Tape tape the straightedge to the top of your boards for transit/storage. I'll get a picture today.
Today 04:58 AM"




I tape my straight edges to my boards now after hearing about it from you. It really does save them from all the dings.

[Susan Malmrose]

Thanks so much for all your advice so far. I'm going to try to look at the grasscloth tomorrow after work and also to look at the room again. The decorator has changed his mind 3 times so far since June on this job.

I have another question concerning the Tapo pasting machine that I bought at the convention. I used it today for the first time and think the paste is too thick because it was hard to pull the paper through. Is it customary to dilute it? Also, paste has been getting on the front of the paper. What am I doing wrong? Thanks for the advice!

[Chris Murphy]

Chris wrote:
"Tape tape the straightedge to the top of your boards for transit/storage. I'll get a picture today.
Today 04:58 AM"




I tape my straight edges to my boards now after hearing about it from you. It really does save them from all the dings.

I took a picture, then forgot to bring the camera back. I'll post a picture tomorrow.

Susan, mark & Jeff & a bunch of others are Tapo fans, they'll tell you more than you ever wanted to know.....

[Eunice, PRS Reporter]

The trip to the paint store takes far longer than 10 min. Get a good straight edge.

I'm not talking about a special trip out to the paint store. Being the control freak that I am, I always know what I am hanging ahead of showing up on the job, so I either have the material or a swatch, hence the paint thing gets combined into a regular supply trip well ahead of the job - but that's just me. I know others who kill amazing amounts of time running around picking up things. Whatever blows your hair back.

Regarding the straightedge, you get gloating privileges because you have an amazing brass bound one. :bow: I'm making do with what's currently available - an Advance 6' aluminum. When I realized it was out, I ordered another. I had the chance to check that one right out of the box, and it's a 1/32 out also. What's a girl to do? They don't get mishandled at all, which was why I almost went mad on that dark grass trying to figure out what was wrong - I didn't suspect the straightedge. :headslap:
BTW, good thing I'm not anywhere near Atlanta or you might find yours going missing occasionally. Who used to manufacture those anyhow?

[Jeff Evans]

Susan, which Tapo did you get? I bought the S2040 and I love it. You can't let any paste get on the feed roller or it will get on the paper as it reverses through, face down. Other than that I don't know what may be getting paste on the face. Look closely at how it operates, where the paper touches, and you may be able to find the problem there. I used to have problems too but a little detective work and experience helped things immensely. Oh, and also be careful pouring paste in the well so you only get it in the well or on the applicator rollers.

[Chris Murphy]

I'm not talking about a special trip out to the paint store. Being the control freak that I am, I always know what I am hanging ahead of showing up on the job, so I either have the material or a swatch, hence the paint thing gets combined into a regular supply trip well ahead of the job - but that's just me. I know others who kill amazing amounts of time running around picking up things. Whatever blows your hair back.

Regarding the straightedge, you get gloating privileges because you have an amazing brass bound one. :bow: I'm making do with what's currently available - an Advance 6' aluminum. When I realized it was out, I ordered another. I had the chance to check that one right out of the box, and it's a 1/32 out also. What's a girl to do? They don't get mishandled at all, which was why I almost went mad on that dark grass trying to figure out what was wrong - I didn't suspect the straightedge. :headslap:
BTW, good thing I'm not anywhere near Atlanta or you might find yours going missing occasionally. Who used to manufacture those anyhow?

I don't know who made mine; I supect it was Embee (got it at the USSPP, '79). My other is a magnesium, and I like it a lot better than aluminum ones I've tried. My brass is brass-bound magnesium. The Mg will bend, but not in the cutting direction: you can get it to better conform to a table or wall. I've got an Embee 3', but have not been able to successfully use it: it's so stiff, that when I've tried to use it to single- or double-cut, it just doesn't work well.
On your next one, using a mechanical pencil (for its thin line), make a line with both sides on a wall, and then turn it so the opposite sides and then directions have to line up, or the thing is crooked. I don't trust counter tops either; put it on a table saw and/or its bridge.

[Jeff Evans]

Not to be a contrarian, but don't trust a table saw either. They warp more than you think. Your machine shop, Eunice, probably has a Granite surface plate, possibly larger than a table saw top, and it is dead flat. Plate glass is manufactured to surprisingly close tolerances as well, so you can use that. I bought some panels of plate glass for cheap at a glass company, as it was extra just laying around in their yard. You''l have to figure out a way to combat the see through problem, like perhaps painting it with blue layout dye from a machinist supply store.

[Boston Hangman]

Thanks so much for all your advice so far. I'm going to try to look at the grasscloth tomorrow after work and also to look at the room again. The decorator has changed his mind 3 times so far since June on this job.

I have another question concerning the Tapo pasting machine that I bought at the convention. I used it today for the first time and think the paste is too thick because it was hard to pull the paper through. Is it customary to dilute it? Also, paste has been getting on the front of the paper. What am I doing wrong? Thanks for the advice!

Hi Susan

I have a Tapo , but it is a 29" so I haven't used it for Grasscloth. I do know if you put too much paste in it ,it can get on the roller. The paste ,if used full strength, should be whipped real well to help it flow better. I use an Advance 40" for my grasscloths and occasionally find I have to back roll as the grass is not as smooth as paper and can leave "holidays". I am assuming you bought the new generation Tapo , a fine machine.( I'm more than a lil jealous):D Give yourself some time to get used to working with it, it will get better. I don't know why it is so hard to pull thru the paper, but make sure you are putting it in properly and the paste is well mixed.
Good Luck,
Mark

[Susan Malmrose]

Eunice, Jeff, Chris and Mark

Thanks to all of you for your help. One of the best things about this website is that you can learn something new everyday. I plan to paint the walls where the seams will fall and I'll be sure to check my straigheadge. I'm also going to wet cut the grasscloth. I saw a horrible dark brown grasscloth installation recently so I'm a little paranoid.

I worked much better with my 29" Tapo today. I was getting paste on the drive roller yesterday and even though I had the 880 shaken, it was still pretty thick which made it hard to pull the paper through. The paste level was probably also just a little too high.

Thanks again for the advice!

Susan

[Chris Murphy]

Taped Boards & brassbound straightedge. Only put the tape at the end of the boards, otherwise the leftover adhesive will have to be removed (use Goof Off or rubbing or denatured alcohol). I also tape the boards when set up, these have no Advance-type dowels. 1 1/2" masking tape.

[Susan Malmrose]

Thanks for the pictures Chris! The latest on my brown grasscloth is that it has morphed into "Japanese Paperweave" by Phillipe Jefferies. Looks like a very flat grass in a loose weave on a thin paper backing. They recommend clear vinyl adhesive. Any experience with this product?

Susan

[Chris Murphy]

KL Conner does a fair amount of Phillip Jeffries, ask him: papakl@bellsouth.net

[Jeff Evans]

Somebody got new trestles:carrot: :banana:

[Chris Murphy]

Somebody keeps them clean & in good shape.

[shelw]

Wow! Chris, how do you have enough time on your hands to keep your stuff so nice?!!! Oh, yeah, you got a wife... I need one of those....LOL not going to the other side anytime soon!!!

[Chris Murphy]

Wow! Chris, how do you have enough time on your hands to keep your stuff so nice?!!! Oh, yeah, you got a wife... I need one of those....LOL not going to the other side anytime soon!!!

Shelly, you cut me to the quick! Any man would tell you that a wife ADDS to the things to be done.