Wallpaper removal disaster

[Margaret Farris]

I have never come across anything like this before in stripping wallpaper, HELP!!!!! I'm not sure how long the wallpaper has been up, but moved into this house 15 years ago. It is a vinyl wallpaper, which the vinyl layer has come off easily exposing what appears to be like a brown paper bag backing. I have had a lot of luck just soaking and resoaking the paper so the glue loosens in other rooms in the house. However, in this case there seems to be only bits and pieces of drywall and then its like cardboard. The paper peels away from the drywall ok, but when it comes to this cardboard, deep gashes are being pulled up. I have taken out one half strip and am scared to go any further. Is there anyway to repatch this and then just wallpaper over the old paper or is painting a better way to go since I cannot get the wallpaper off. My husband told me to just leave the old up, but I didn't listen:

[Lee Epstein]

If when you wet the brown paper it doesn't bubble up try priming the whole thing with Gardz. Then spackle the bad areas. Sand, then re-prime the walls again. Then you are ready to paper.

[HangingInThere]

Any chance you can post a picture of what you're up against???

[Bill Archibald]

Margaret,

My guess is that the installer hung the paper right on top of the sheetrock. The backing of the wallpaper is now "one" with the sheet rock. Do as Lee says. Gardz is one of a few "Drywall Repair Clears" formulated for this situation. If you are near LA you may be able to find the original, Draw-Tite by Scotch Paints.

-Bill

[Jim Seymour]

There was a building product from about 50 yrs ago used instead of drywall. It was cardboard, about 3/16 to 1/4 inch thick. Hung like dry wall, seams taped and nail heads were skimmed. Not really water friendly. As others suggested prime it.

[fine paper hang]

Conclusions are correct I think some issues are worth mentioning
Hopefully Margaret's decision that old backing could not come off was isolated to a small section. I have found that priming does work especially when old backing shows no bubbles when wet. But keep in mind some times old backing can fuzz up and dry in such a way as it is not a good surface, requiring sanding and re priming. Some times wetting each wall down one at a time and prime one wall per time may help as it slows the dry time a bit and helps in such a way that the paper fuzz’s up from the water and gets pushed down from the primed roller 2 coats still may be needed .
The other method which I never had one failure is when you discover backing that does not come off, first fix bad areas and old seams with some Ready Patch spackle ( a fast dry product) now size walls with a diluted paste of what you plan to use for substrate. I have found you end up with walls very much like a liner paper as was once sold years ago I don’t see it to much now a days. Still this method should be used on materials with minimal chance of a paper absorbing a stain from underneath and leaching to surface. As a note if you wet walls and don’t see wacky staining shades coming out of it or old paper backing does not even seem to change color much those would be good signs as to walls that are not going to leach out stains.
Keith

[Bill Archibald]

Keith,

Have you used Gardz or Draw-Tite over damaged drywall or "backing"

True, oil primers do like to "fuzz up", but the waterborne "Drywall Repair Clears" (DRC's) penetrate, seal, and "harden".

Yes, sanding may be required, but you don't get the "fuzzies" like you do when oil primer is put on raw rock.

The DRC's are also a suitable foundation on which to be hung. Although I do prefer a coat of Swing Prep Coat on top of the DRC

-Bill

[fine paper hang]

I have used Sheildz with good results
I remember when sheildz came out back in the 80s
what a ammonia smell.
not to bad now or maybe I am toxed out from years of use

[Bill Archibald]

I have used Sheildz with good results
I remember when sheildz came out back in the 80s
what a ammonia smell.
not to bad now or maybe I am toxed out from years of use

Yup, you're prolly "toxed out" :roflmao: After many years of stripping paper with ammonia, I can barely smell it anymore. That's one reason why I switched to Safe and Simple.

As we know, Shieldz has been made in many varieties, but the two major classes were waterborne and solvent based formulas. (I'm not sure if the solvent based is still available). Also, as we know from past internet "discussions", there exists a very wide disparity in the opinions as to the effectiveness of Shieldz waterborne formulas.

I would hazard a guess that waterborne Shieldz does not have the penetrating and sealing properties that Gardz and Draw-tite do. Which, IMO, is what is needed in this situation.

-Bill

[fine paper hang]

Shieldz does not have A true penetrating and sealing ability
it works but i have seen that if it gets wet from paste some times it can be scraped off with finger nail

[HangingInThere]

With Shieldz white pigmented waterbornes I've lost seams in the past double-cutting (especially down to the 1/4" variety)...will not use it if I'm in the driver's seat. I've never had an issue with Roman's Ultra-Prep on bare rock...

[fine paper hang]

i'm going to give Roman's Ultra-Prep a try

[HangingInThere]

In my humble opinion...a good move! I keep my liability in one court by using their primers and adhesives. Plus, Ray Carden in their Tech-support is a valuable asset! I have relied on Ray's expertise to help me troubleshoot on numerous occasions... ;)

[gadams]

Keith, I think you will find it quite amazing.It drys flat in sheen and so hard that it could fool you into thinking it was oil.it is sold as Roman's Professional Ultra Prime 977 or at Duron as Cover Prep Premium Acrylic Pigmented Primer or a version with mildecide as Roman's Ultra Plus pro 988.I haven't seen the 977 on the shelf lately so they may have just gone to the 988 across the board.I have some on showroom walls that I have stripped 8 or 9 times with just a little touch up after each stripping.It's good stuff.

[HangingInThere]

Keith, I think you will find it quite amazing.It drys flat in sheen and so hard that it could fool you into thinking it was oil.Described very well Guy! If you happen to let some dry on woodwork...be forewarned! :( It really does perform like an oil...

My experiences with it are the same... If I'm not doing my own priming I make sure the painters know they should accept no substitutes!! :)

[gadams]

While we are on the topic of primers,maybe someone could chime in on Swing.It's a product I am not familiar with, that has been mentioned by a few ,whose opinions I respect.Is it available under different names on the east coast?What are it's attributes?I would like to give it a try.Forgive me if I am asking a question that has been asked a million times or maybe even asked by me before but the old post 70's ;) memory banks can bring it up on the screen.

[Chris Nelson]

You will get more answers, but Swing is a great wall covering primer, it is just somewhat hard to get, even here on the East coast, unless you are buying a pallet , shipping costs can be prohibitive.

http://www.swingpaints.com/a_product_list_paint_wallpaper.htm

[gadams]

Drys in 20 minutes? There's the first good reason to use it.Can you really hang over it that soon?

[Jeff Evans]

Swing is the cat's a$$, that's all you need to know. Getting it is a pain in my a$$, though, so I buy a few cases just so I don't have to worry about it for a long time. To my knowledge, they don't make it for any other label, although other companies have had similar products .

I would say the 15 minute dry claim is a wee bit of a stretch, unless you're rolling it on with a weenie roller very thin, in the summer. Besides, I like rolling any primer on very heavy, and that increases the dry time even with a box fan working on it. The one time I do like it thin is over a glossy finish.

I still use Draw Tite, and I'm getting ready to make the trip to Scotch in a few minutes to stock up, but Prep Coat has become the primer I use more these days. It's just a unique product, and paper just hangs so well over it. Draw Tite is my preference on porous surfaces, or bare mud, though, although I have spot primed with swing.

[Chris Murphy]

While we are on the topic of primers,maybe someone could chime in on Swing.It's a product I am not familiar with, that has been mentioned by a few ,whose opinions I respect.Is it available under different names on the east coast?What are it's attributes?I would like to give it a try.Forgive me if I am asking a question that has been asked a million times or maybe even asked by me before but the old post 70's ;) memory banks can bring it up on the screen.

I think they were the first water-based wallcovering primer that was worth a hill o' beans. Label used to say "Prep Coat," multi-colored yellow, purple, green label of fleur-de-lis, I think? Product dries slightly green/blue. It was out by the early '70's, sold at the shop where I was first exposed to wallpaper as a business. I used it back when I started, in the late '70's.
It works by having silica, which provides tooth. It doesn't have any 'hide' properties whatever. Holds up for stripping. Not to be confused with Benny Moore's junk wall-preps of the past. It's possible Rosing has a quart can on their shelves; they never throw out anything they think will sell eventually.
Bob Kelly's paper-hangings.com site should have back issues of Master Paperhanger magazine; he did an interview with one of the family in one of them.

[fine paper hang]

In a sense they still sell products like that but I remember those types of items , all those products did were even the porosity of walls and give some bite . I remember many a wall cover removal situation when that type of product was used on walls that removal was imposable do to zero wall protection and in my opinion after applied installers think it seems dry but wet paste will be liquefying the prep coat and re-drying as a more water proof paste which is some thing totally not desired

[Chris Murphy]

In a sense they still sell products like that but I remember that item , all those products did were even the porosity of walls and give some bite . I remember many a wall cover removal situation when that type of product was used on walls that removal was imposable do to zero wall protection and in my opinion after applied installers think it seems dry but wet paste will be liquefying the prep coat and re-drying as a more water proof paste which is some thing totally not desired


Not to be confused with Benny Moore's junk wall-preps of the past.

[gadams]

That is why I asked the question,about the dry time,it would be great to have something that's ready to hang on in 30 mins. As we all know dry to touch is something totally different than being dry enough to hang.I have had the of experience with my painters, painting over the previous coat ,too soon reactivating that coat.It can make a mess out of the finish.The same thing happens when the paste hits the not fully dried primer,as FPH states the paste and primer become one.It can really make removing a problem not to mention what it can do to your seams as it drys.If I am using a dark primer I usually wait longer than the dry time states.

[Bill Archibald]

Guy,

Like Jeff E. I too use Swing Prep Coat just about exclusively (and like he, agree that D-T or Gardz with Swing on top makes for a WONDERFUL surface).

1073


Now, the front of the can states:

"SÈCHE EN 20 MINUTES"

ooops, sorry. Wrong front of the can

"DRIES IN 20 MINUTES"

but instructions on the side say,

"Dry Time Allow 2 hours under normal conditions
before hanging wallcovering"

Although many people do hang after that twenty minutes, I avoid it. I prefer the 2 hours but will hang at one hour if absolutely necessary. In small powder rooms, first thing I do is apply it to the first wall I will hang. Then the rest of the room, and then bring the rest of my equipment in and set up.

I have had great success with this product as have many here in Boston. We go through enough of it that two or three local stores are willing to carry it. The last shipment I "encouraged" a local S-W to obtain cost us $17 per gallon.

I have noticed on Amazon that one can buy it for $23 a gallon before shipping. OUCH!

http://www.amazon.com/Pack-Wallpaper-Prep-Coat-gallon/dp/B00068Z8TY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1205603035&sr=8-1

This product does confuse me. If some drips on woodwork, it CAN be removed relatively easily with a damp mifty two days later. You wet it, let it sit for a few minutes, and them wipe (somewhat vigorously) off. To me this indicates it rewets easily, but no one has ever reported the typical problems associated with prep coat rewetting.

-Bill

[Jeff Evans]

I don't necessarily wait two hours to hang over it because I use a box fan to speed things along. And I decide which wall I'm starting on and prime that wall first. That way I am able to dry that wall while everything else is getting done. It's pretty close to 2 hours at that point, and it's drier than it would've been on its own accord.

When I think of prepping a wall, the last thing I want my wallpaper sticking to is a painted surface with a thin film of primer on it. Rather, I want it to be a primed surface that has totally saturated a painted surface. I'm no chemist, but I'm hoping the less ISN'T more theory holds water. As I said, glossy surfaces are the exception, where less IS more.

I am also baffled that you can wet and scratch this stuff off, but if you see how wet you have to get it, and how much effort it takes, you would feel comfortable that it's not going to be a problem with the paste loosening it. It takes a sharp object to lift it, like a finger nail, and wallpaper pulling on it when it's drying isn't going to be able to lift it.

Currently I'm paying a large commercial wallcovering contractor about $21 a gallon to hook me up with 40 gallons at a time. I sell some to folks, and keep the rest. This guy buys a pallet direct from Swing, which is pretty much what you have to do for them to want to bother with you directly.

I prepped a bathroom last fall with it, and hung a paper over it with 234. The people hated the paper and had me strip it off a month ago. I was interested to see how it would go, because the walls were flat paint. The prep coat gave me no problems whatsoever, and the paper stripped off clean. I think any problems folks are reporting involve the knock off prep coats that have the same coloring. This is an exceptional product.

[fine paper hang]

JE is likely correct about knock offs ,so many types of clear finish preps out there but they differ and have different variables, I was wondering have other paper men when they may hang a dark paper that could shrink a bit . Figure seam placement and prime a color the same as paper where seams would land and if it shrinks a bit at least it wont show to bad . Does Swing help prevent shrinkage as well as say R35 and other sticky type preps ? Since I like using R35 with dark pre pasted paper using the pre seam placement dark priming technique / not sure if I invented it but no body told me about it I remember hanging a black pre pasted paper a snap to hang and came back the next day and wham seam shrinkage. White oil primer showing O happy days O happy days . At the U S school I went to they said to over lap a teeny amt to compensate but I never liked the feel of that method , what’s your thoughts?

[Jeff Evans]

My analogy on striping the walls where the seams go: It's like pulling an old golf ball out of your bag when you reach a par 3 over water. This in contrast to using the good ball you were doing so well with prior. You're anticipating failure, my good man, and my dad always pulled this psychological cop out when I played with him.:eek: Drove me nuts.

Here's how to combat shrinkage at the seams:
1) Proper prep with a wallcovering prep or primer. Swing PC is great for this.
2) Don't use too much paste.
3) Don't over work the paper, or stretch it. Using a good sweep will help this.

[Bill Archibald]

Jeff,

When you stripped that room, what was the condition of the SPC (Swing Prep Coat) ? Was it "as good as new" not needing a recoat? Did it wash/scrape off with the paper?

And I assume no PSSS (peeling sunburn skin syndrome)

inquiring minds.

-Bill

[Jeff Evans]

Bill,

The walls were good to go at least another round as far as I could tell.:thumbup:

[gadams]

Sounds like the fast dry aspect,the small amount of tint ( to let you know where you've already been,wish Gardz would add some) and the silica ( flattening agent,that gives tooth and in turn seam grip) are good enough reasons to try not to mention the recommendation namelist.Oh yea ,spare gallon anyone.I thought one of the Benny Moore Wall Grip products was okay.Maybe Wall Grip 3 can't really remember.Only used it a few times.

[Bill Archibald]

Guy,

in the name of full product disclosure, I gave Cliff Hayes a gallon and he did not care for it. He's a tried and true Shieldz man (and when mixed with Gardz becomes "Shardz")


Rumors I have received is that the mineral in SPC is diatamaceous earth (fossilized deposit of microscopic shells created by one celled plants called Diatoms). If you are not a swimming pool owner, allow me to say that this stuff is readily available at any pool supply store. I've oft though about throwing a handful of DE in a gallon of Gardz, but as my knowledge is only from hearsay and rumors (that I have not generated), I've been reluctant to test in a customer's house. But adding a little universal tint into Gardz would certainly be possible.

[Chris Murphy]

I'm not into rumors.
From Master Paperhanger Magazine, Vol.1, #4 (Oct. 2001), "The Prep-Coat Story," p.53:
(Mark Chaimberg) "Prep-Coat consists of a high grade of acrylic and a lot more. There are about 20 components, including defoamers, anti-bacterials, freezing point depression compounds, gelling agents, surfactants, etc. It also contains various carbonates, silicates, and oxides to provide the appropriate grip. We recommend coverage of 800 sq. ft. on the label.
"There are two main goals for Prep-Coat. One, the surface must become reasonably sealed. That is because wallpaper will not bond well with a porous surface. Two, the grip must be superior. If the grip is good, the wallpaper can take a lot of humidity and still not come undone."

[Bill Archibald]

I'm not into rumors.
It also contains various carbonates, silicates, and oxides to provide the appropriate grip.

Thank you Chris, I know from what you speak.

I had heard the specific silicate compound used was diatamceous earth (86% silica, 5% sodium, 3% magnesium and 2% iron)

DE is used in the paint industry as a filler (USGS Minerals Info)

BTW, I'm pretty sure Mark Chaimberg is the US East Coast distributor (Eric Chaimberg is in the west) and not the head chemist up in Montreal. Well, at least when he's returned my calls he has been in his office in Etna, NH and helped me with directing product.

So I'm thinking if we could confirm that DE is the specific silicate they use, we would be able to nearly replicate that great surface with almost any coating.

In the past I have used rotten stone to flatten the gloss when formulating graining glaze, but the particulates probably ain't as large as those in DE and I do not think rotten stone has the porosity that DE has. I'm sure DE's porosity makes for a better mechanical bond with the coating into which it's been added.



We play home chemist because we CAN

[Chris Murphy]

Mark Chaimberg is the US East Coast distributor (Eric Chaimberg is in the west)

It's a family business. They're the sons of the inventor of Prep-Coat, Phil Chaimberg.

Go ahead and play chemist with your customers. If I knew for a fact that just adding an element to a product, and stirring, would achieve a desired effect, I would; I do it when I add water to a paste. But I tend to be cautious with that kind of thing, as I need to be able to predict the results.

[Bill Archibald]

Go ahead and play chemist with your customers. If I knew for a fact that just adding an element to a product, and stirring, would achieve a desired effect, I would;

Absolutely. I would advise the same.


I've been reluctant to test in a customer's house.

I play home chemist.
When the results are known and predictable, I take them on the road.

I don't think I'd even try other "proven" concoctions (e.g. "Shardz") for the first time on a job.

[Jim Zuzevich]

Hey Bill, I'll take some DE to the chapter meeting next week so you can play with it. It is a cancer causing material I think. I'll go dig some out of the pool shed now and read the label. Man, you wear a lot of hats, now a chemist!

[Jim Zuzevich]

Thats an affirmative on being a cancer causing material when inhaled in powder form. The stuff is like talcum powder right out of the bag. If you mix it in water you can actually see the fine grains of particulate in it. If you want some just ask.

[Jim Seymour]

DE is great stuff...kills bedbugs and fleas, filters beer, livestock feed additive, swimming pool care and of course- toothpaste.

[Lee Epstein]

According to my Organic Gardening magazines DE is an organic way to kill bugs. Supposedly no ill effects to humans.

[Bill Archibald]

Jims, You guys are funny - and accurate.

Yup, DE can be an irritant when inhaled, and I'm sure cancerous like other dust.

The DE used for killing garden critters (slugs, especially) is different than the DE used for pool filtration. The pool type is smoother while the garden type has sharp edges that rip into the "skin" of slugs, bugs, and other thugs.

And I have plenty, we switched over to a sand filter when we revitalized our pool last fall. I'm just looking for a good use for it. :rolleyes:

It is an inert substance with lots of tooth and neutral ph. It is a already used in the coatings industry. As many painters know, all sorts of stuff is added to paints - rotten stone and talc to flatten, micro-balloons as a filler, sand for anti-slip, and now new thermo-insulating additives.

I'd like to explore this DE possibility more.

[Jim Seymour]

I'd like to explore this DE possibility more.

It's safe, just mix it up in your favorite recipe- and give it to your friends! Whoa, make little pills and sell it as Intesti-clean Tastes better than Scrubbing Bubbles Hey, do you know how much titanium dioxide you've eaten...35 yrs ago I ran the stuff through an airless, now it's in more food than you want to think about.
And before I forget...Jim Z, welcome!

[HangingInThere]

I think I heard the stuff is a flavor enhancer, much like MSG... I suspect that it would also give one that "full" feeling which might help with weight loss.

[Bill Archibald]

I think I heard the stuff is a flavor enhancer, much like MSG... I suspect that it would also give one that "full" feeling which might help with weight loss.

I don't know Glenn, if it kills garden thugs by ripping apart their outer layer, what will it do to your intestines??

Here's an internet quote:
To insects DE is a lethal dust with microscopic razor sharp edges. These sharp edges cut through the insect's protective covering drying it out and killing them when they are either dusted with DE or if it applied as a wettable powder spray. If they ingest the DE it will shred their insides.

I got digestive problems enough already. Thank you very much. :roflmao:

[HangingInThere]

That does not sound pleasant at all!! It might be akin to passing a kidney stone... ARGH!!

[Mark Chaimberg]

Mark Chaimberg from Swing Paints here. For those of you looking for Wallpaper Prep-Coat, we have managed to increase the number of stores that now carry the product - in response the great work done by the Guild members in their areas.

An updated listing is available at www.swingpaints.com - click on where to buy.

In CA - it is available at some Dunn Edwards stores.

In MA - some SW stores and Waltham Paint

In CT - Rings End.

Any new stores will be immediately posted on the web site.

Also, sorry for the high cost from our web site, but shipping is really pricey!

Mark

[Chris Murphy]

in response the great work done by the Guild members in their areas


Well how about that! Somebody's (online) ears were burnin'!

Mark, if you'd like more help- introducing your product to paperhangers and sundry and wallcovering manufacturers unfamiliar with it, and getting leads on outlets to sell it- you really need to consider coming to Asheville, NC, Sept. 17-20. Montreal's a great town, but you need to get out more! Come to Asheville!

[Mark Chaimberg]

Been to Asheville. Have some relatives that live in Hendersonville - a short drive away. Went rafting down the Chatooga river - lots of fun.

Here's an updated list of stores

CT Litchfield Paint & Wallpaper Litchfield
John Boyle Decorating Center New Britain
Taylor's Paint Center Fairfield
Branford Paint Branford
Ring's End Lumber Darien, Niantic, New Milford, Bethel
New London, Wilton, Branford
MA Factory Paint Pembroke, Plymouth, S. Weymouth
Hometown Paint Franklin
Sherwin Williams Lexington, Needham
Waltham Wallpaper & Paint Waltham
NJ Painten Place Denville
NY Elmont Paint Elmont
Ring's End Lumber Vista

[gadams]

The Chattooga is in Georgia and to reciprocate for that fun day,maybe you could get us some of your product down here .:D

[Mark Chaimberg]

Chattooga actually borders S. Carolina and Georgia. We started in S. Carolina and ate lunch on the Georgia side.

[gadams]

We won't get technical here but the deep seated origins of the Chattooga are in the hills of Georgia(just ask Burt Reynolds buddy in the movie "Deliverance")ssooooo eeeee!, but you are correct it forms the border of Georgia and South Carolina for some distance .Now about that primer.

[gadams]

.I stand corrected ,E.Fork flows from S.C. West Fork from Ga., equal claim.You don't want to get lost in either of those hills .Now about that primer.

[Chris Murphy]

Been to Asheville.

Been to Montreal.

Ain't been to either when there is a National Guild of Professional Paperhangers Convention. But there will be one in Asheville Sept. 17-20, so I'll be there, too. Bob Kelly, who did a real nice spread on Swing and your dad in his late-and-lamented Master Paperhanger Magazine, will also be there, and I believe he's giving a demo or lecture.

[HangingInThere]

29 posts later...I wonder how Margaret is doing with her project??

[ProWallGuy]

29 posts later...I wonder how Margaret is doing with her project??
I'm glad you said that and I didn't have to. She logged in to write the questions, logged out 5 minutes later, and hasn't been back since. :headslap:

[HangingInThere]

It sure got us started here...we've discussed nearly everything under the sun...well, except for ranting on Windows Vista! :D