Primer not adhering

[knockaert]

I was to install paper in a bath today. The homeowners had their painter skim the walls and apply primer.:headslap: He primed with 123. When I arrived this morning, I saw that the edges had not been cut in. I ran my hand over the unprimed area and saw that it was dusty. I did the masking tape adhesive test on the primed area and it failed. I suspect the painter did not remove the sanding dust before priming. I just talked to him and he did not admit to this, but in our conversation he mentioned he had skimmed the walls with hot mud. I remember hearing something about problems with hot mud. Any ideas on how to fix this problem?

Thanks

[Chris Nelson]

I posted this on the APN also

Nowhere in the literature( http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=11) does it say 123 is a wall covering primer. I do not understand why anyone would use this as such when there are so many primers out there that are labeled for wall covering.I think it was Phil who finally figured out that removal is not so much fun when using this product alone as a wall covering prep coat.

[knockaert]

Thanks Chris,

I have never personally used 123 as a wallcovering primer. In this case the painter chose to use it. It may not state in the literature that it can be used, but clearly printed on the 1 gallon can is "Under wallcovering, 123 provides an excellent base for wallcovering over any surface. no sizing is required". I had clearly told the decorator the painter must use a primer that states on the label that it can be used as a base for wallcovering. This was after the painter was going to prime with oil. It was the painters responsibility to do all the prep. His response to me was "I did what you said to do". I don't feel any responsibility for his prep, I feel I did him a favor by pointing it out before we had what I believe would have definitely been a failure.

[Chris Nelson]

"Under wallcovering, 123 provides an excellent base for wallcovering over any surface. no sizing is required".

Wow,I have missed that. I am betting he did not dust as you said and I know it does not stick to hot mud very well,good luck.

[Chris Murphy]

Check the Installer articles from last summer that I posted on the APN. The dusty surface is not necessarily sanding dust; impoperly mixed or adulterated mixes (e.g., adding joint compound) is common and results in the mud not having cohesion.
Regardless of the cause, the primer will have to come off. The APN suggestion to cover over it will not work, as it will be the weak link in a chain of coatings. Gardz and other sealers will not penetrate the 1-2-3 sufficiently, either.
The stuff may wash off with water and a stiff brush. But try a 50%/50% mix of white vinegar and water first. Spray it on until the surface can absorb no more moisture. The surface will look like it has a sheen. This may allow the hot mud to harden, by adding sufficient moisture and knocking down the ph.

Good work being observant and trying an adhesion test.

[knockaert]

Thanks Chris,

I always do an adhesion test when I am not the person doing the wall prep.

I did read your articles in the installer last night when I received your reply. I had read them when they were first published, but could not remember the details or where I had heard about the hot mud problems.

The painter was trying to pass this off as a primer defect. His sales rep from the chain paint store he purchased it from contacted me and went to the job site and did agree that it failed the tape test. I mentioned the points you made in your articles and he agreed with that also. The painter is going to remove the 123 and prime with Gardz on the recommendation of our local Zinnser rep. (Not the paint store rep)

The sales rep (Sean) asked me to email him a copy of your articles. Is it OK for me to do this or is that against guild policy, since the archives are in the member only area?

[Chris Murphy]

As far as "policy," a written statement that we not share those files, there isn't one. As the author, I don't mind at all.

It may need 2 coats of Gardz, and a couple of days for that to cure.

[Boston Hangman]

Chris

I am going to play the :devil:'s advocate here (and may regret it:hide: ) but why 2 coats of Gardz?

I have used Gardz in this way and the stuff just runs off itself . The purpose of Gardz is to penetrate and seal, if it is topcoated with itself, it isn't penetrating any longer.

I prefer to topcoat with Swing if a second coat is desired. :thumbup:

But thats me....and some people don't think I'm right :coocoo: :lol:

Jeff

What are you hanging anyway?

Mark

Go Sox!!:2thumbs:

[gadams]

I have found that a skim coat absorbs most of the first coat of Gardz,leaving the surface too porous, requiring a second coat to gain full effect of the product .

[Chris Murphy]

but why 2 coats of Gardz?

I have used Gardz in this way and the stuff just runs off itself . The purpose of Gardz is to penetrate and seal, if it is topcoated with itself, it isn't penetrating any longer.

And:

I have found that a skim coat absorbs most of the first coat of Gardz,leaving the surface too porous, requiring a second coat to gain full effect of the product .

Remember, Jeff's dealing with hot mud here: it's very porous. The chemist at Zinsser felt that Gardz could overcome high alkalinity (if that was present) and penetrate and consolidate the surface. The second coat would seal it. I've found, as Guy has, that sometimes an extremely porous surface will suck that stuff right in; the can also says to use a second coat if an uneven sheen results (or did). So I guess if tooth was needed, Swing would be the third coat.
Me, I don't trust that Gardz is necessarily the answer to a bad coating, and that is why I researched a bit (actually, for years) to find a solution. That being said, something screwy happened on that job, and you can't always answer for it.

[knockaert]

I agree with Guy and Chris. My experience with Gardz on bare mud does require a second coat. I tried it once with just one coat and the surface absorbed the adhesive like a sponge, leaving little adhesive on the surface.

The paper on this job is a pre-pasted Seabrook. I'm waiting to hear back from the painter as to what he is doing to fix his goof and when he will complete the prep. Since my initial conversation with him I have only heard from the paint store rep. I don't think he liked the fact he screwed up this job and cannot blame it on the paperhanger. He was hoping the paint rep would agree with him that he did nothing wrong.

Thanks to the Guild and its resources, it was easy to show who was at fault. Thanks again Chris, your articles made it easy to prove my point. :2thumbs:

[knockaert]

I was finally able to install the paper last week. The painter sanded off all the 123 and sealed the surface with a coat of Gardz topped with a coat of Shieldz white, as per the Zinnser reps instruction. It seems to have worked. It passed the adhesion test and so far no call backs. Thanks to everyone who responded to my question.