wall primer for nonwoven wallpapers

[tami]

i recently hung a brewster nonwoven wallpaper over wallpaper that was primed with Zinseer oil based odorless primer.
the wallpaper started to curl off the wall surface by the next morning. has anyone had any problems with this combination?

[Bill Archibald]

Tami,

I see many possibilities that would contribute to failure.

Before anyone makes a final determination, can you give a few details ?


Did you apply the primer or know how the previous surface was prepped? If so, was it washed? Was it sanded? Do you know if it was a paper-paper, a vinyl coated paper, and acrylic coated paper, or anything else?

Was one of these the primer ?

1250 1252

How long did the primer dry before wallcovering installation ?


Did you put anything on top of the primer/sealer - like an acrylic wallpaper prep coat ?

Was the non-woven a pre-pasted or did you use paste, and if so, which one.

If you used paste, did you paste the wall or the back of the product?

Sorry for all the questions. I think I know your problem, but I want to make sure we all the info.

-Bill

[Chris Murphy]

i recently hung a brewster nonwoven wallpaper over wallpaper that was primed with Zinseer oil based odorless primer.
the wallpaper started to curl off the wall surface by the next morning. has anyone had any problems with this combination?

Did the paper pull up the primer, or did the paper let go of the primer?

[Bill Archibald]

After posting my questions, I thought of a follow up question which is similar to Chris'.

What was on the back of the paper - paste or paste plus primer?

I too, once 35 years ago, had a paper just fall off. It too was on an oil primer. But I had been playing with paste mixtures ...... I think. The paste was dried and "crackily" on the back of the paper. No primer was on the paper. Indicating an obvious failure of paste/primer combination.

I brushed the paste off the paper and rehung each piece with an unadulterated version of my favorite premixed paste....... on the same primer.

[tami]

thank you for the response, since then i found out from the home owner that it was a MasterChem product called Shieldz oil based odorless primer, so i emailed the same info to the tech-support and the reply was that the primer was not to be used when hanaging wallpaper. the product dries by evaporation (only) and does not cure like an alkyd or latex resin would. they said you would have to apply a primer/sizing for it to work. i used only a glue size. they said if it was not sized/primed the glue would start to dissolve the primer and allow the paper to remove, and that is what happened!
hope this info helps someone else.
tami

[Bill Archibald]

Tami,

I've re-read your reply over and over about ten times and I am more confused than before.

The only "Shieldz oil based odorless primer" I have ever come in contact with is a wallpaper primer and made by Zinsser, not MasterChem. In about 1993, I used it in a dining room with no problems. As a matter of fact when I revisited that house in 2002, that paper was still very much secure.

By any chance did the H.O. mean KILZ odorless primer ? Which is made by MasterChem.

If that is the case, then I fully understand. No product bearing the Kilz name, that I am aware of, is suitable for priming under wallpaper. IMO

Also, IMO, remediation would entail stripping the old wallcovering, washing the walls of all paste residue, applying an appropriate prep coat, and reinstalling paper.

-Bill

[HangingInThere]

I'm a total Roman Adhesive and primer dude. So, I'm not sure about the use of other manufacturer's adhesives on oil primers. I know that Roman Adhesives will not guarantee sticking directly to any oil based products.

We've discussed the problems here in another thread regarding the problems presented by today's VOC (volatile content) altered oil primers. The molecular structure of these oil primers is too dense to provide today's adhesives the ability to literally get a grip...

If a true old fashioned "glue size" was used on one of today's oil based primers, such as Kilz...I would have serious reservations as to its ability to maintain a bond, since as far as I know, it is still of the adhesive genre itself. It may have had other applications, but glue sizing was used on plaster walls to prepare them for wallpaper...long ago...

http://www.hallsbeeline.com/range_detail.php?RID=118 I don't know the actual chemical composition of "glue size," but I know many who used either powdered vinyl adhesive or wheat paste rolled directly onto the wall and allowed to dry. If this is the case, as I mentioned above, I would doubt its ability to adhere to any of the VOC adjusted oil or solvent based paints/primers.

According to the dictionary, sizing is an appropriate term...however, because of its relationship to glue size I find the term quite misleading. I would submit that we need to be referring to the primers we use under wallcovering as "wallcovering primers" and drop the "sizing" vernacular altogether...it is much too confusing.

A very similar scenario would be wallpapering over lacquer products. I've seen even old clay based applications of wallcovering last about one month on lacquer...and then hit the deck :( They simply can't bite into it... The adhesive will be found affixed to the wallcovering but the install will be a failure.

[Chris Murphy]

thank you for the response, since then i found out from the home owner that it was a MasterChem product called Shieldz oil based odorless primer, so i emailed the same info to the tech-support and the reply was that the primer was not to be used when hanaging wallpaper. the product dries by evaporation (only) and does not cure like an alkyd or latex resin would. they said you would have to apply a primer/sizing for it to work. i used only a glue size. they said if it was not sized/primed the glue would start to dissolve the primer and allow the paper to remove, and that is what happened!
hope this info helps someone else.
tami

I sppreciate you getting back to us, and relating the explanation of the failure. Zinsser's "Odorless" is an acrylic-modified oil that has been out about 5-6 yrs. It works best as a ceiling paint. They also make a true oil-based primer, if you can find it. Let us know if it was Zinsser that made your product, just for our information.
VOV is a Roman, patented, Vinyl-over-vinyl paste. It has nothing to do with VOC, volatile organic compound. Glen's explanation of why paste doesn't stick to most of today's oil/alkyd primers is spot-on.
Glue size is an animal-based product- remember cartoons of horses going to the glue factory? There are still hide glues made, but I don't know of one in wallcovering anymore.
We in the Guild constantly correct consumers and manufacturers to the differences of sizing and primers. You could give up cable TV for 3-4 months and join. Or keep watching those crab boats late at night.

[Bill Archibald]

According to the dictionary, sizing is an appropriate term...however, because of its relationship to glue size I find the term quite misleading. I would submit that we need to be referring to the primers we use under wallcovering as "wallcovering primers" and drop the "sizing" vernacular altogether...it is much too confusing.




Glen,

You may like this:

http://billarchibald.com/size.html

It's slightly dumbed down (for one, it does not get into differentiation between "glue" and "paste") so that the H.O. can better grasp the thrust of the purpose.

Anyone who wants to use it, has my permission, but I do ask, if you print it out and use as a hand-out, that my byline and web address (billarchibald.com) is included

-Bill

[HangingInThere]

Very nicely done Bill! ;)

If this was, indeed, Kilz on the walls I would submit that any wallcovering adhesive can chew on it till its blue in the face...fat chance of dissolving it.

What I suspect is that you've come face to face with modern day oil/alkyd primers and their incompatibility with today's adhesives.

If I had my druthers, I'd always put down an initial coat of something like Kilz to provide impermeable surface protection for new drywall and mud. Follow this up with a latex/acrylic primer to ensure adhesion.

Even under the best latex/acrylic primers on the market the drywall and mud are at risk with the amount of moisture sometimes needed to remove certain wallcoverings.

Budgetary constraints, time, or both usually send us in search of the one stop shop, and there are some admirable products now on the market...most of which are oft mentioned here by the pros.

On an additional note, if I determine upon removing a wallcovering that the substrate is oil...even if I know it is an older well "dispersed" oil, I will insist upon cleaning all adhesive and priming with an acrylic. I know from the tech-support at Roman Adhesives that the VOC content of at least the clay base adhesives has been altered. The starch based I'll have to ask them about, but whatever the case, the liability assumed by accepting this type of "iffy" substrate is simply not worth it.

BTW...this could probably be moved to a more appropriate forum... ;)

[Chris Nelson]

Or keep watching those crab boats late at night.

Tuesday @ 9pm here

[Chris Murphy]

That's late at night for me!!

[ProWallGuy]

BTW...this could probably be moved to a more appropriate forum... ;)
Yessir! :tiphat: