wheat base tub adhesive?

[paypr mn]

I am installing a flock wallcovering that requires wheat base tub adhesive.Any familiar brand names?

[Bill Archibald]

I know that GH-34 is a "wheat base tub adhesive".

It's tough to find "on the shelf" anymore. Supposedly Roman still makes it and it can be "special ordered"

Any corn starch pre-mix acceptable as a substitute?

I hung a non-woven flock last year with 838 with good results.

[master hanger]

I am installing a flock wallcovering that requires wheat base tub adhesive.Any familiar brand names?

Waiting right now for a Cole metallic flock. I take the guess work out of paste decisions. When I gave the decorator the rollage, told her to make sure they send the proper tub adhesive. Won't hang any English unless they provide the paste.

[Jeff Evans]

I've never used the famous tub adhesive and I doubt my work life is any the worse for it. I use any of the following combination's of adhesive for Brit papers: 838, 838 and wheat, 880 and wheat, or wheat and clay. If I'm rolling it on I like the wheat and clay. The others work great in a machine, and are invariably used in conjuction with wheat sized blank stock.

I can't fathom that the mysterious tub adhesive from across the pond is any more suitable than any of those mixtures, nor much different in chemical makeup. Just because they label it something else doesn't mean it's the magic bullet.

[brit stick]

halls beeline is the make i use over here expensive smelly and a shelf life of about 6 months .

[master hanger]

[Q

UOTE=Jeff Evans;18684]I've never used the famous tub adhesive and I doubt my work life is any the worse for it. I use any of the following combination's of adhesive for Brit papers: 838, 838 and wheat, 880 and wheat, or wheat and clay. If I'm rolling it on I like the wheat and clay. The others work great in a machine, and are invariably used in conjuction with wheat sized blank stock.

I can't fathom that the mysterious tub adhesive from across the pond is any more suitable than any of those mixtures, nor much different in chemical makeup. Just because they label it something else doesn't mean it's the magic bullet.

[/QUOTE]

I've use all your mixes and agree they all work.

A friend bought a load of Zoffany, due to not using their "black tub adhesive". That wasn't the reason for the failure, but it worked for zoffany.
The tub pastes are actually quite good, so I see no need to load their gun

[Bill Archibald]

Hey Gary,

Have you used the typical "tub paste" that Brit manufacturers recommend?

The rumors I hear is that it is actually superior for hanging the high end Brit Pulps than any pre-mix over here. The rumor I heard is that a NY hanger was spec'ed to use it and really thought it was worth the trouble and the price.

This is was second hand news when I heard it, so I can not vouch for its authenticity, but it did cause me to keep my ears and mind open.
Do you have any personal experience?
I know Pete (TooledUp) loves the powdered pollycell ( I think it's called)

[Jeff Evans]

The point is, we have a wealth of resources to choose from here for adhesive. You can't tell me that we don't have something, or a combination of products, that will produce at least an equal paste to the UK tub adhesive. I will grant you that any of the straight premixes have not fit the bill for me more often than not. But I have a little home chemist in me, much like many of you, so I can figure out what will add the characteristics I need.

I'm not opposed to using the tub adhesive if it was readily available. As a matter of fact, I wish it were so I could try it out. But at the cost I'm hearing, I can mix up something else that will work just fine, thank you very much. What exactly is it about the Tub paste that is so much better/different than any of the ones I listed?

[master hanger]

What exactly is it about the Tub paste that is so much better/different than any of the ones I listed?

Not necessarily better, different...yes. Here's my take

I'll assume you cut clear with wheat for a longer set.(used to be FC-100+FC200 in the good old days) Have used that mix on installs such as a fine leaf where the clear might set too fast.

Cutting the clear with clay,(automatic to some extent for me),to set the clear up quicker. Works really well on some heavy Brit, grass, pasted fabric types, tweaked to get the best balance.

As far as the tub adhesives, I'd say it's applies more like the a clear/wheat, will sit for a very long time without over soaking, with tack like clear clay.

[Bill Archibald]

Jeff,

I see it like a tool that others have tried and liked. There's just something in me that says, "gotta touch it, gotta try it!"

[Jeff Evans]

Jeff,

I see it like a tool that others have tried and liked. There's just something in me that says, "gotta touch it, gotta try it!"

Well, yeah, I get that. Goodness knows I'd be first in line for the stuff if it were available here. But it ain't, and to spec it for any Brit paper you're hanging (and the implication- if I'm reading it correctly- that you aren't gonna hang without it), seems a little drastic to me. I wonder what kind of trouble I could get into for hanging Zuber scenics with wheat with 111 thrown in? Think Zuber would honor any claims? Shooot... We follow our instincts all the time, in spite of the hanging instructions.

From the sound of it, the properties sound similar to GH34. Clumpy, poor shelf life, and smelly when it goes bad. There is nothing, and I do mean nothing, like bad GH34. I used to open an old bucket of it near my kids open door in the summer and just wait for the squealing to begin. Mix in some wheat and it goes bad quicker, and even more foul. If I can get an even better paste than I can make myself, then I'm all for it. But my position is we can all make due with what's available and affordable here.

[Chris Nelson]

Well, yeah, I get that. Goodness knows I'd be first in line for the stuff if it were available here. But it ain't, and to spec it for any Brit paper you're hanging (and the implication- if I'm reading it correctly- that you aren't gonna hang without it), seems a little drastic to me. I wonder what kind of trouble I could get into for hanging Zuber scenics with wheat with 111 thrown in? Think Zuber would honor any claims? Shooot... We follow our instincts all the time, in spite of the hanging instructions.

From the sound of it, the properties sound similar to GH34. Clumpy, poor shelf life, and smelly when it goes bad. There is nothing, and I do mean nothing, like bad GH34. I used to open an old bucket of it near my kids open door in the summer and just wait for the squealing to begin. Mix in some wheat and it goes bad quicker, and even more foul. If I can get an even better paste than I can make myself, then I'm all for it. But my position is we can all make due with what's available and affordable here.

I would bet that the five of Duron wall prep that had been sitting in the Florida sun a couple months would come very very close! This you would not even dream of opening near any children

[Bill Archibald]

Well, yeah, I get that. Goodness knows I'd be first in line for the stuff if it were available here. But it ain't, and to spec it for any Brit paper you're hanging (and the implication- if I'm reading it correctly- that you aren't gonna hang without it), seems a little drastic to me. I wonder what kind of trouble I could get into for hanging Zuber scenics with wheat with 111 thrown in? Think Zuber would honor any claims? Shooot... We follow our instincts all the time, in spite of the hanging instructions.

From the sound of it, the properties sound similar to GH34. Clumpy, poor shelf life, and smelly when it goes bad. There is nothing, and I do mean nothing, like bad GH34. I used to open an old bucket of it near my kids open door in the summer and just wait for the squealing to begin. Mix in some wheat and it goes bad quicker, and even more foul. If I can get an even better paste than I can make myself, then I'm all for it. But my position is we can all make due with what's available and affordable here.

Nope I don't know one hanger that has ever lost sleep over not using a recommended product. As you say, the manufacturers are notorious for not honoring any claims - well except for Thibaut recently here in Boston and in other locales.

Heck, after a few years we've all learned better, easier, more convenient ways to handle product than what the manufacturers recommend. I almost wish I were back in my noobie days before I knew better than those who made the stuff. Back then it was fun learning something new everyday, but now that I've graduated to full fledged know-it-all, life ain't exciting any more

[brit stick]

i have spoken to bee lines technical department over here and in the states there is no true wheat basesd adhesive .
the composition /infomation on ingredients are water based traditional flour based prepered paste modifed with starch and dextrine includes additives for stability and a low level of preservitives.
this paste is for handprints and fine textiles .
bee lines advice is not to use clay or any thing with pva possibly look into resteration work such as book binding reparing antique papers .
there has been many times when i have hung without using this type of paste
and had no problems at all .
with regards to bills question on pollycell its a flake paste knock it up in a bucket stuff far to wet for high end papers even if you add pva glue to it to give it some bite to much to go wrong over soaking etc far far better to go with a ready mixed the key to our wheat bassed is the high solids content.
for those that are intrested the physical and chemical properties are appearance -biege paste
density-approximatley 1.03g/cm
ph-7.0
solid content 14-20%
make of that lot what you will i rate it even if it is a pig to roll out

[master hanger]

Snowing in the NY area, so I'l be stuck on the computer it looks like. Figure I'll keep poking this with a stick.....


You guys kill me. You'll discuss brass edged straightedges, the absolute need for laser levels,a dozen types of paste machines, lining papers, preps, smoothers and god knows what else as the end all products, but to prefer your home made paste concoction to what MAY really work???? Surprises me. Especially if you've never tried it.

Don't get me wrong, I'll mix sweat with spit if it worked, but the tub paste works quite well, and leaves the company to only blame my inability to hang their product as a reason for a failed install. After all, we all know there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the product.

Being in the NYC area I guess I have better access to it. (still wasn't easy to find). So, I tell decorators to just order the paste with the paper. Gets delivered to the job. One less thing for me to bring or worry about....... signed, (the 800 lb gorilla)

BTW... Jeff, the next time I have a decent order, I could send a bit to your lab